ApologeticsTalk - Episode 1 - The Problem of Evil

ApologeticsTalk
Episode 1 - Apologetics in everyday conversation
(C) 2008, W. Peter Freund

“The Problem of Suffering & Evil”

INTRODUCTION: The premise for these dialogues is that the application of apologetics is better caught than taught. The following is a fictional conversation between Peter, the Christian, and Bob, who is an atheist with a troubled past. The content is loosely based off the arguments found in Keller’s chapter on suffering and evil from “Reason for God.”

Bob: I hate politics these days. There's so much dishonesty going on. In fact, the whole world is going into the gutter.

Peter: Good thing God will one day step in and make things right.

Bob: God? Are you kidding? Everyone knows that God has been disproven centuries ago.

Peter: That's news to me. How so?

Bob: Well, come on. The problem of evil, for example. It's obvious. No Christian has been able to solve it yet.

Peter: Maybe, maybe not. But, first of all, how do you even know I'm a Christian? Maybe I believe in God, but not the God of Christianity. Regardless, I know the problem you're talking about. But, let me ask you a question: why do you think evil is such a problem?

Bob: Well... If God exists then why isn't he doing anything about it? It seems to me pretty insensitive on God's part to just stand there as all these evil things are taking place.

Peter: Are you referring only to evils happening now, or to evils in the past also?

Bob: That's a good point. There were a lot of worse evils in the past, like the holocaust, and the Crusades.

Peter: So, you think God should step in and do something about all these things?

Bob: Yes.

Peter: But, I thought you were an atheist, that you didn't believe in God.

Bob: Yeah. I mean how can God be real if he doesn't do anything about evil?

Peter: Well, don't you agree that something can exist, even if it doesn't conform to our expectations?

Bob: What do you mean?

Peter: I mean that just because God doesn't act the way we want him to doesn't mean he doesn't exist. That would be like saying I don't believe in my wife's existence because she does things I don't like.

Bob: But, if God were real, it's obvious he would do something about all the evil.

Peter: Who says?

Bob: Well, for one, you Christians are always saying that God is good, and that he loves people. But, obviously, he doesn't love them enough to protect them from evil.

Peter: That's true. But, from a Christian point of view, the problem of evil is a different problem. It's the problem of simply trying to understand why God allows the kinds and amounts of evils he does. We trust he has a reason, and that it is compatible with him being good, but we just don't know what the reason is. But, we're talking about your philosophy, not mine. Why do you believe God can't exist because of evil?

Bob: Because if God existed, he would be powerful enough to prevent evil and he would be all-knowing, so there simply wouldn't be evil, but there is, so God doesn't exist.

Peter: But, isn't it possible that God himself is evil, and that he doesn't desire good at all?

Bob: Well, God pretty much is. I mean why doesn't he do something??!!

Peter: But, again, this is the kind of thing someone who believes in God says, not someone who doesn't believe in God. You're talking as if God really exists, and not only that, you seem angry at God for the way things are. But, how can you be angry at a God who doesn't exist?

Bob: It's just stupid. I get angry when I hear stupid ideas. And, I just think the idea of God is stupid. How can he be good when there is so much evil? You're dodging my question.

Peter: How do you define evil?

Bob: Ummm..... Well, how do you define evil?

Peter: I'm interested in your definition more than mine, because you are the one with the problem of evil. I don't have a problem of evil.

Bob: OK, evil is murdering innocent people, torturing, hurricanes that kill, tsunamis that wipe out thousands of innocent people, dishonesty, I could go on an on.

Peter: I agree. But, what makes these things evil. You are just giving examples.

Bob: Well, they're all evil, that's what makes them evil.

Peter: But, that's just a circular argument. That's like me saying the reason I think God is good is because God is good.

Bob: OK, well, these things are evil because they shouldn't be that way.

Peter: Says who?

Bob: What?

Peter: They shouldn't be that way according to who? Who says they shouldn't be that way?

Bob: Well, I do.

Peter: So, if you don't like something then it is evil? So, if you happen to hate broccoli, then that makes broccoli evil?

Bob: Well, for me it does.

Peter: But, the problem of evil is not that God can't exist because Broccoli exists. The problem says that God can't exist because the world is not going according to plan, right?

Bob: Yeah, I guess so.

Peter: OK, so how do you define evil?

Bob: Evil is when things don't go the way things are supposed to go.

Peter: Right, but according to who? Who says there is a right way things are supposed to go?

Bob: Mother nature.

Peter: But, in nature, whatever is, just is. There is no right or wrong. If a wild animal kills another, it doesn't murder the animal, it kills it, and when apes take from each other they aren't stealing from each other.

Bob: Yeah, but apes aren't human beings.

Peter: But, if atheism is true, then human beings are nothing more than animals. And, if we're nothing more than animals, then we're part of the natural world, and in the natural world, everything that happens is simply natural. There is no objective standard for moral duties, for moral values, and moral accountability. Everything that is, just is.

Bob: But, that doesn't mean it should be that way.

Peter: I agree. But, the word "should" only makes sense if there is a way things ought to be, but nature has no such standard. Only God provides such a standard for how things ought to be because he created the world to work a certain way, he holds us accountable, and his very nature is loving and just.

Bob: But, it's obvious the world is full of evil. I don't have to give you a sophisticated explanation of evil in order to see it.

Peter: Yes: Exactly! The world IS full of evil, but if it is the case that evil can only exist if there is good, and if it's true that good can only exist if there is an ultimate objective standard of God, which is God, then the fact of evil actually proves that God exists!

Bob: Well, I don't have time to get into a big debate about this, but if you're right, then wouldn't it follow that God exists, but is evil?

Peter: Only if it were true that God could create a better world than this one.

Bob: Well, even I could create a better world than this one.

Peter: How could you do that if you don't even know what the word "better" means. God's definition of "better" may just be way off from your definition. It's like the broccoli example. You might think broccoli is evil, but that's just a mistake.

Bob: It's obvious that there are lots of evil things that don't have to be here.

Peter: Well, let me ask you a question, then: have you ever done anything wrong, or committed any acts that are at least a little bit evil?

Bob: Well, sure. But, so?

Peter: Could you imagine living in a world where all your freedoms were taken away and you couldn't do anything?

Bob: I would hate that.

Peter: But, the only world in which evil doesn't exist is one in which God locks us up and prevents us from doing evil, whether it be evil actions, thoughts, or words.

Bob: But, God could never stop us from exercising our free will! That's impossible.

Peter: Exactly!